A 416 dilemma. What to do?

[robertbartsch]

Mustang Marvin:

EVERYONE including "newbees" are welcome here. The mission of this forum is to help people learn and enjoy the hobbie of vintage Hi-Fi. There are no dumb questions.

[bfish]

Brad,

I find your conclusion ( in red ) somewhat callous .

Perhaps it is, but having plenty of experience throwing good money after bad, I consider it practical advice.

My interpretation of all your posts here ( within this thread ) is that Pano ( or anyone in his position ) has sole ownership of the dilemma that he now finds himself in .

- ie; You seemingly imply that, "even talking about it here threatens the greater good ( such as the possible retirement of the $ 15.00 fee ) / & therefore he ( & the rest of us campaigning for a change to GPAs' process ) should clam up ".

You read me pretty well Earl, only it's not the mere "talking about it" that I feel harms the greater good, it's the focused attack on GPA as the mia culpa, and the complete avoidance/dismissal of discussion of other possible causes that neither they nor Pano could have (practically/economically) forseen.

I disagree ( if that is indeed your position ) , my perspective is that everyone here has some culpability when they simply parrot the message that these "old Altec drivers are all fixable over at GPA" . Clearly that message isn't correct and Pano has been misled by it .

Now here is where I agree totally! You can search my posts till you're blue in the face, but you won't find a quote from me even remotely like that. I cringe when I read that oft-used phrase. Often it's made by some exhuberant recent customer that's thrilled to death with their restored Altecs, then parroted over and over again. However, people that make their financial decisions based on what they read in a web forum are in for some costly surprises.

Fortunately though, when they get to GPA, they do get practical advice. I know of several cases where Bill cost himself a sale by offering cheaper alternatives. Take Airboss' example just today.

[GM]

Know anyone down in Atlanta who can recharge? If shipping is not too far, I'd take another chance.

Nobody anymore, but the local re-coner reminded me of some folks I know from way back that may can still do it for us DIYers, so got more emails to send.

GM

[GM]

- I guess your assumption is that GPA didn't discharge the alnico first before recharging , correct ? Maybe that didn't happen, I dunno .

- Nonetheless, there are enough testimonials ( here, within this thread ) that I would now be quite wary of sending my stuff into GPA for refurbishment .........

- It's a real drag ........I usually just take my business elsewhere to avoid the hassle.

From the get-go, it's been my opinion that they either didn't get drained properly or just got re-zapped, but I have no experience with such big magnets or how re-coners with zapping capability actually do speakers, though it did/does seem reasonable to me that in essense there's no difference between them and the small magnets I did so many of.

I know of some others discontent with GPA that haven't seen the light of day AFAIK, so have been leery for quite awhile now, but most folks praise them, so have continued to recommend them when appropriate and hoped for the best since AFAIK there's no viable alternative ATM. Mike's situation put the brakes on me recommending them for drivers likely to need re-zapping though.

Yeah, we're of the same sentiment, life's too short to deal with any more hassle than absolutely necessary.

GM

[GM]

Well, no in a word GM. You are far more the expert in this field than I am. Maybe we should talk about process control on a 900 mile pipeline sometime. Oh, never mind. No forums for that.

I can spot chicken shit and envy from mile away though. This thread, and I'm not talking about everyone, has brought out the lynch mob mentality here and I think it's time for some moderation.

Tell, me sir. Have YOU had any personally disappointing experiences with GPA or do you do all your re-mag and cone work yourself?

Well, then it seems to me you're a glutton for punishment then. When I start getting upset with where a thread's going, I move on to more productive ones.

Actually, I may know a little about it, I designed many a custom controller for both Colonial and Canadian Pipeline during my tenure with (Eaton) Cutler-Hammer. The field trips to the various job sites weren't much fun.

Apparently not if you're using them to describe me. As a general rule, I rarely post on non-moderated forums for some of the reasons you list, but this one with a few really glaring exceptions has done quite well without it and so far, for the most part doesn't seem to need it, but there's some issues concerning GPA's customer service that needs addressing and to continue to 'sweep it under the carpet' for whatever 'fear' is to me what 'chicken shit' is all about.

No, I've never had any communication with GPA nor done any business with them, only sent some business their way and neither have I ever re-coned a driver or zapped/re-zapped a driver motor magnet. Frankly though, I don't see how either is relevant to what I've posted.

GM

[airboss]

Fortunately though, when they get to GPA, they do get practical advice. I know of several cases where Bill cost himself a sale by offering cheaper alternatives. Take Airboss' example just today.

I might add, with regard to this comment that he or Chris will juke the mags, check the flux in the gap, and call before continuing. We're shooting for 11,000 but 10,400 to 10,600 is a frequently usable outcome.

Part of our discussion centered around Altec documentation. He mentioned one of the 515series that some of Altec's literature showed at somewhere far in excess of 15,000 Gauss. (I apologize, I don't recall the number) He's done exhaustive examination of the files that came with the equipment and found engineering memo's calling into question this and many other numbers. It seems perhaps, that marketing often made up their own numbers. My citation of my own post from 2003 gives salient testimony to his point. The literature often sucks.

He zapped an original set of 416B frames today and got them to just under 13,500.

Interesting point:
Altec didn't adjust the settings on the zapper for individual drivers. They built the fixture to do the ultimate zap regardless of what they put into it. They met the engineering goals by designing the magnet core to provide the proper field at full zap.

[Todd W. White]

OK -

I somehow missed this thread until today.

I have just read the entire thing - now my head hurts.

Seriously, though - I think the following comments are in order:

1. Nobody's perfect, and that includes all of us. Bill has been very busy trying to keep up with orders for parts and new products, and it isn't easy when you're a small company. Couple that with the difficulties a small company can incur when an employee is sick, for example, and being shorthanded makes for a hectic day.

I know for a fact (since I handle most of GPA's email's now) that some of GPA's customers get impatient when their products aren't turned around in 24-48 hours. Bill is the most conscientious guy you'll ever meet, and, when people get impatient, he tries his best to make sure their work gets done and their products get sent out.

Unfortunately, as with all of us, it is possible that things fall through the proverbial cracks sometimes.

Now, while I am NOT accusing anyone of doing so, let me remind us all that public forums are just that - public - and I think it's best not to allow these discussions to degenerate into rock-throwing (unless it's a JBL - that's OK ). One of the things that I am most proud about this Forum is that our folks, unlike some on other forums, are pretty good about policing ourselves and not falling into that trap.

2 That said, I need to find out GPA's SOP for rebuilding an woofer.

3. If it coincides with the recommendations previously made, then I will report that. If not, then I will pass the suggestions along to Bill. I'm sure that if this is an issue that has developed with some speakers (not all have this problem - in fact, most don't), then it needs to be addressed and written into the SOP.

Until then, I would recommend not throwing the baby out with the bathwater...

[bfish]

...Interesting point:
Altec didn't adjust the settings on the zapper for individual drivers. They built the fixture to do the ultimate zap regardless of what they put into it. They met the engineering goals by designing the magnet core to provide the proper field at full zap.

Now where have I heard that before... oh yeah;

...For production, you don't measure 'em, you saturate 'em and go to the next one.

Which is why, if the gap strength is below spec after zapping, there's something else wrong.

[Earl K]

Thanks Todd for your post !

I think we here, all love some Altec product, and don't desire to throw the baby ( GPA ) out with the bath water .

Everything that Dan (airboss ) has just reported shows that GPA is already on track to address the concerns with process ( which I've previously mentioned ) .

<> cheers EarlK

PS : Thanks Dan for calling Bill today .

[airboss]

#1 The field trips to the various job sites weren't much fun.

#2 Frankly though, I don't see how either is relevant to what I've posted.

GM
[/SIZE]

The font size must mean I got your attention. Good.

As to point #1. I'm not surprised, the arctic is a cruel and demanding environment. I spent a third of my career there. In the end I wrote procedures. Some people hate the detail and the demands of methodology. I was born for it. I'm sure you've written your share.

Procedure review, or SOC as we called them at Alyeska, is a tough place to make things up as you go along. Somebody gonna getcha. I would estimate that 90% of the struggle is learning to get along.

As to point #2, Unless I'm very badly mistaken it is your assertion about draining alnico before recharge that got most of the hot air going. It is relevant in so far as a slot car motor, paramount, is not a complex acoustic driver motor. If I understood your posts, you did disassemble the motors completely before recharge. The construction of the Altec motor is not designed that way. You're an engineer; you know better.

And finally, I have no interest in kicking the shit out of anyone, but my post for a slow down in the rhetoric said NOTHING about sweeping things under the rug. It said simply, let's slow down and think about this. Let's find out what the procedure is. Let's not make it up as we go along. That's how people get hurt.

You and I would not make best friends GM, but we can be civil neighbors.

Sincerely
Dan